Transcript - Imi Lo
Jess (00:00.44)
Yeah, actually, I guess this probably is the start of the podcast because I did want to say publicly, like I was so grateful to come across your website. Because I don't really feel like there's anything quite like the way that you frame the topics that you're talking about.
Imi Lo (00:26.638)
I really see that the topics that you're talking about, they're so important. And I think that you write about them in a way that's very, very inclusive and very sensitive to the experiences that people are having. And yeah, I think it's so important that voices like yours are amplified because navigating mental health and sensitivity within people is such a tricky thing. And I was really, really grateful to have come across your work.
Thank you for saying that. It means a lot to hear that.
It's beautiful. So I guess like I was really curious to understand what your journey was, because I know that you've undergone such a depth and breadth of research. Could you explain to me like how you've stepped through those different processes of research and maybe what kinds of mindsets you had along the journey?
Gosh, don't know. I've been doing this for like a decade now. So I think growing up for a long time, I felt like I didn't fit in. I was always told in verbal and nonverbal ways by my family and people around me, or at least I just got the feeling or message that I just didn't fit in. Like something about me felt really odd, like I was either too melancholic or I felt too much. And even when I spoke to closest friends,
it would feel like they don't seem to get the same feelings from the same stuff that I did. So I think for long time, not only that I didn't feel I fit in, I also felt like my sensitivity and deep feelings were like a burden. Like I was always too much, too emotional, too intense. And I got told that a lot, like, why are you so intense? Very affected by things around me, even down to things like reading a novel or watching a movie would create such deep ripples.
Jess (02:15.558)
Especially when I was younger, when I was less able to regulate my own feelings. I always struggled with feeling overwhelmed. I felt like I had depression from a really young age. And I always felt like there was something I needed to fix about myself. And I ventured into all sorts of concepts and ideas. I read a lot of books. Like I read the Enneagram when I was like 14.
The FTCI when I was really young, I my god, I am this type, I'm that type. And I began to find some answers. And then I came across Elaine Arendt's highly sensitive people and I felt, this is me, this was me. But then as the year goes by, I kept finding more and more answers and framework to explain my experience. And even the HSP stuff also felt a little insufficient in capturing everything.
So I kept finding ideas and in the end I guess I came up with the framework of feeling emotionally intense which I felt is in the middle of many other concepts. It's like a Venn diagram where it's a trait that falls somewhere in there that captures a lot of things I want to capture. And once I put it out there, I realised, actually there are other people who felt in similar ways. Historically, people associated with autism.
And now people are broadening its definition to things like ADHD and learning disabilities. I'm not a super expert in it and I'm not an educational psychologist. So apologies if I'm using some of those words in a non-officially correct way, but I do believe that it is an innate difference, probably partly nature, partly nurture. But the way certain people are in the world,
The mind, the brain, the way they are, way they function, they're just wired differently. And I do think it's valuable and needs to be honored. Especially in a world where it's a lot about diversity and want us to celebrate. Well, I think the world is going backward a bit recently, despite all of that, we've made a lot of progress as a collective in celebrating diversity. And I think emotional intensity and sensitivity should be a part of that celebration.
Imi Lo (04:31.31)
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Cause that's what really resonated too about your book. was sort of talking about the difficult aspects of that a personality, but also why it is a gift and why it is something to be appreciated, even if you are a bearer of some of the weight that it carries. So I felt like you really held up both sides of the coin in a really beautiful way. And I guess I'm curious. I know I reached out to you because what's been on my mind is I'm a little bit worried about the way those terms are being pathologized. And I think your work speaks to the fact that there's like the biological and neurological aspect. But do you feel that there's also too much of a negative connotation being sort of hung over those terms? Or what's your lens on the way that we're currently framing mental health?
That's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I guess my question is, do you feel like sensitivity and mental health are being conflated? Like the language to me feels like when we talk about mental health, it's being pathologized. And that's why I love your frame, because you're framing it as sensitivity, which isn't something to fix. something to, I guess, step into. Or how would you how would you
I'm not framing all mental health related labels as sensitivity. There are many, many mental health diagnosis and they are not all related to sensitivity. over time through my own personal journey and working with others, and it's a hard one because having been told all your life that something is wrong with you is not something you can just undo. Even when no one tells you that, even when you have the most supportive family,
Jess (06:13.25)
you still somehow feel like something about you is different. See, now we're having different concepts here with mental health, I've brought up neurodivergence, there's sensitivity, there's intensity. They're all slightly different and we're not mixing all of them together. But let's focus on just sensitivity and intensity. Personally, it took me a long time, but I am beginning to embrace it. Well, I have, feel it. Embrace it and celebrate it.
And it's just what it is. It's not better or worse. It's like a different personality. We're trying not to say this personality is better than that. I MBTI is getting very Instagram popular these days. We don't see people saying INFJ is definitely better than INTJ. Like, there isn't such a thing. So I think this should be the same. There are, let's say, 16 types of personalities. are this, some people are sensitive. Some people are less sensitive or not sensitive in the same way.
Whenever I feel joy, I have a feeling that I feel it a lot more deeply than certain people. And those are the moments where I feel I'm so glad I am this porous, sensitive being. I think there's a difference between sensitivity and fragility. Sometimes people conflate them and think of them as a similar thing. I think it's very, different. Many highly sensitive people I know are the strongest.
They probably had a lot of training to have to manage their emotions from a really young age. So yeah, and lot of sensitive people are great connectors. They have very deep empathy. They are very good with one... I say they, obviously I'm making a wide-sweep generalisation. But they're able to go very deep. notice beauty in life and they feel it to very deep level. To point where... their lives are often very, very vivid. I think the trick to turn it into more something that feels more like a gift is to learn some recollection skills, to learn to have a better relationship with themselves, is to learn to manage the emotional ripples, not to erase your emotions, not to become an unfeeling, numb someone, which some people do in order to cope with the sensitivity. I know I've been through a phase in my life where I just...
Jess (08:39.032)
try to switch it all off and no, I just felt dead. And I do think a lot of people very sadly have resorted to that. But learn to manage and regulate their emotions and swim in the water of it without feeling like they're drowning all the time. Then they will embrace it and then they will embrace the empathy, the creativity, the fact that they see people, they see things that others may miss, and use them and notice the nuances and notice the details in art and music. If they can channel it into something more like their vocation, I think that would be even more wonderful. But not everyone has to do that.
That makes a lot of sense. Your book breaks down some really clear ideas that people can use in terms of self reflection and tools that they can use. Could you share those with people? Like what are the things that people could step into if they are trying to regulate themselves or be out of be more open to their sensitivity?
I'm not sure. wrote the book a while ago. I'm not sure which tools you're referring to.
The ones that really struck me was you've got some really beautiful journaling prompts in there, but then you also actually spoke about listening and trying to find like a safe person to share your experiences with, which I thought sounded really special.
Jess (10:01.73)
Yeah, not everyone has the luxury of finding that person, but ideally that would give you a very great space and what we call, psychologists call a corrective experience sometimes, where when you had a lot of trauma in your past, having an opposite experience that gives you the opposite of that is very healing. And they also say in therapy where a relational wound could only be healed relationally. So the most powerful healing to, let's say you've been wounded by your family of origin, the way you were spoken to, having a different father or mother figure, like a therapist or say friend that gives you an opposite experience in a good way is very deeply healing. So giving your brain a different experience. So that's what you might be referring to, but to try and answer your question, maybe I will offer some themes.
Trust me, I would want to say to people, you're not alone. That the fact that many people online are saying things and people buy this book and it gets to be a book is because there are others like you. It may still remain a minority in the general population, but you're not the only one. So many people feel that their sensitivity is a problem, especially in a world that really is plagued by productivity, need for productivity, catalysts, toxic masculinity, bottling everything up. Those values are still there. I think we are beginning to talk about these things more and more, but it might just be the circles I hang out with. And I think in the general mass consciousness, a lot of those, covering it up is still going on. You in Australia, I think that's, that's partly why I left Australia. It's like,
People here are not melancholic enough. It's just, I want to go a bit deeper and not always just forget about the unhappy thing and... Sorry, I'm making some cultural generalisation, but that was only my personal experience. Like, I wanted to...
Jess (12:17.73)
Forget about the cultural.
I think it's interesting. No, no, no, I actually think it's really interesting what you're saying. I really do. Cause the thing that's been worrying me and I don't know if we'll keep all of this in, but the thing that does worry me at the moment is, is I keep feeling like people are labeling themselves with having ADHD or autism or anxiety, but I don't get the sense that the conversation and the emotional unpacking is happening. And it worries me because I feel like the words that are attached to those labels, like, I'm messy. I'm disorganized. I'm this, I'm that. I feel like people are attaching themselves to those labels, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it may not even be the case that they have a sensitivity or it's, I don't know, it just seems like a really, really messy space at the moment and the language is being thrown around.
I agree, I agree fully. I think people are finding answers for their suffering and that's when labels become really alluring. That, my god, finally I found this label, this community that would explain my experience. So really can't fault people for seeking labels, but I agree with you that there's a risk of it being overly thrown around, overly identified with. It's a long, it's a historical problem, like...
For many years, people would go, oh my god, I have OCD. Just because they're a little bit of a clean freak, they would just throw these words around like OCD is a casual thing. I'm like, oh my god, Monika, Monika, I'm revealing my age. Monika in French, she has OCD. Well, I think it's a little more complex than just wanting to organise your living room or pick up the garbage on the floor. It's just...
Jess (13:56.002)
The danger with this is it gets diluted and it becomes... counter discriminates at the pawn just because yeah, it loses the respect that it warrants, the seriousness of it. And it becomes over diagnosed to the point where people don't see it as seriously anymore. Is that what you might be pointing to as well, that it's just overly thrown around and everyone is attaching the label to themselves without going through a more rigorous process?
Yeah, 100 % because I think it speaks to what you said before, like even the pressure to be so hyperproductive. If someone's not entirely hitting that mark, they're very quick to think that something's wrong with them rather than thinking about it's like probably a structural problem that we have at the moment. Like how are you meant to be organized with phones and computers and everything sort of vying for attention? Like it's no wonder people feel like they're not they're not on top of stuff, completely. mean, the capitalist world, the dominated ideology in society doesn't allow very much people to very much be living in the moment, be human. Everything is so defined by binaries, good or bad, productive or not.
You're either moving forward or you're slipping backward. It's very productivity driven and we're not allowed to switch off and really live in the flow of things. Yeah, sorry, we've deviated from the original question, but I guess we're having an organic conversation here too.
Imi Lo (15:32.332)
Yeah, because this is why I think to like your language around sensitivity is really missing from the equation because I think that it's a much nicer label and a much more explorative label for people to give themselves because then they can explore in what way are they sensitive, what kinds of things give them that feeling of sensitivity. And to me, that's such a nicer invitation than where people are currently landing.
Yeah. The deeper invitation is for people to own the trades and to learn to work with it rather than against it. it may feel like it's holding you back sometimes or you've tried trying to suppress it because you haven't learned how to manage it. And my suggestion is to start working with your sensitivity like it's a friend. So instead of fighting your emotions, try to notice what they're telling you and flow with it and see them as a compass. not even try to overanalyze it, just to say, I'm feeling this. Maybe I need to take some time to just lie in bed and feel this and it will go away because nothing lasts forever. But also not just to like, just go away. It's more like, okay, it's like the weather. It's raining now. So I'm not gonna protest to God or just say, stop raining and fight useless battle, but rather than say, it's raining now, let me just maybe wash the rain for a little bit until it stops raining, because it will eventually stop. I think a lot of people are worried that once they open the floodgates of emotion, it will never stop. It will become like a waterfall and then they won't be able to manage it and they'll drown in it. It might have come from some trauma from the past when they were younger, where they literally did feel like they were drowning in emotions and there were no way out. But as grown-ups,
It rarely happens like that. Usually when we allow the emotion to be there and flow through, they do. And also owning your traits help you to manage it better. With sensitivity, does come certain things like you might get overwhelmed in the sensory level. Like I still definitely need noise cancellation headphones and thank God to the invention of those. And earplugs, when I go out.
Jess (17:50.624)
and I just unapologetically wear them all the time. And knowing where your limits are and knowing your needs would really help you to manage your day-to-day life, to help you function better. So there's a lot of good to acknowledging and embracing your traits.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And even just your points around intuition, it's one of the first books that I've read that's so intellectual, but also speaks to the fact that intuition isn't nonsense or neuroticism or something that comes from your imagination, which was nice to also like read from you a sense of permission to be okay with the intuition and to not necessarily discard it or argue with it. Cause I feel that at least within myself, that's maybe a pattern that
I can imagine others get into because it doesn't quite make sense sometimes when you have a feeling and you want to push back against it. But yeah, actually, could you speak to that? Like how, how did you come to the realization that like intuitions are real and that certain people do have more of a heightened sensitivity towards what's going on than others or how did you come to that conclusion? Cause I guess maybe that's something that's overlooked when it comes to, I don't know, institutional knowledge.
So the definition of intuition is tricky, different people define it differently and philosophers talk about it in a different way as well. What I… I can't even remember how I define it in the book, but… They do say that intuition, although it doesn't seem to make logical sense at the moment, but it's like that quote, who said it, Pascal or something? Your heart… I'm butchering it. Your heart has wisdom that your brain doesn't know or something.
Yeah, intuition is not irrational. It is just a very fast way of conglomerating years of experience that you've accumulated unconsciously. It's like the whole... you've read the book Thinking Fast and Slow. Yeah, so it's like a system one, system two thing where it is actually a very fast machine that has come up with an answer based on many years of accumulated experiences. So it's not baseless.
Jess (20:06.678)
It's just that at those moments you couldn't figure out all the threats that had led to that answer, that's all. So there is that. And then when you said interpersonal intuition, that's when you feel like something is icky. That's, think, a lot of people discard because they feel like, it's not nice to think of it in this way, or like they resort to very black or white way,
This is my teacher. They have to be good person. This is my friend. Why would I feel icky in their presence? But there are lots of unconscious forces going on that we may not want to see at the moment. For instance, our friend might... Because it's easy to put people in categories and think of things in a very binary way, like it's either a good person or bad person, is that a good friend or bad friend, when actually people are complex, we can love someone and be angry at them, we can absolutely be supportive of someone's success and be jealous of them. I know I feel that towards my friends, like I genuinely think, my god, they deserve everything they've worked so hard for. And I feel a bit intimidated sometimes, like, they've done these things in life, what have I done? So these things are mixed, like even towards people we love, like family members, we love them, but we could be angry at them, we could be resentful.
We don't want to be around them sometimes. So there are nuances. How this ties to intuition is when we get an intuition about something not being right, it might be useful to honor them. Like, why do I feel like my boss is putting me down, even though everything they say sounds so nice? Well, maybe they are actually putting you down in a really subtle way. So learn to see beyond the surface can be quite a useful tool in interpersonal relationships.
Because lot of things like microaggression are not immediately obvious and require some breaking down. And that first requires honour, your feeling and your instincts. Like, ugh, something about this room doesn't feel quite right. Something about the way this person speaks to me just doesn't feel quite right at all. Everything seems so nice about this person. I don't know what's wrong, but every time I walk away from an interaction with her, I just feel like a smaller person.
Jess (22:31.414)
And sometimes it is not because of that person. No one is, usually actually, no one is at fault. It's just a dynamic. But it does warrant a deeper exploration rather than immediately dismissing it as, I'm just being oversensitive, stop thinking. See that's a dominant narrative isn't it? Don't overthink things, stop thinking. You're just oversensitive when actually maybe there is something in there that would be useful to explore.
Maybe your friend is unconsciously, without maliciously doing so, putting you down. Maybe they don't even know they're doing it.
So therefore the goal is not to blame anyone, nor to say they are bad person, therefore stay away from them. Not so simple like that, but just to see more nuances in human interactions and learn to honor your instinct better and then act accordingly. Usually nothing needs to be done. It's not like, my God. make me feel bad, me set boundaries and move away. Sometimes that's warranted, but sometimes it's just about noticing.
Imi Lo (23:46.574)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. No, that makes so much sense. 100%. I didn't want to cut you off. No, that makes perfect sense. It really does. It's a really, it really does. And it's a nice message because I understand too what you're saying about it's not necessarily that something needs to be done. I guess even just maybe the internal acknowledgement that you're not crazy or not asking yourself to push away the intuition creates a sense of internal safety in and of itself.
Yeah, absolutely. Just explore it, just be curious. It could be useful, it could yield something, or just maybe it's a dead end and we drop it. just for your audience, I didn't prepare for this interview whatsoever, it just turned out. And so apologies if it seems a bit messy sometimes.
Do you think it's bad that it's messy?
No, no, I think it's harder for some people to follow and not everyone likes it. We're going on the organic route, right? I am like that too with my own podcast where I might have some ideas about what I might want to ask, but usually the conversation just weird, veered off in an organic direction and I enjoy that.
Yeah, because I always get a little bit scared that if there's a schedule then maybe a particular thread of curiosity might not be followed.
Jess (25:05.932)
that. I love that about your openness to an organic conversation. think more people, and this again points to a whole general cultural thing as well, it seems to me that more people are comfortable with structure and linear ways of thinking and rule books. As I think I am too personality wise, but I also think it's a product of the whole need for the whole society to be a productivity machine rather than leaving some white space and room for the unexpected things to emerge, the organic things to emerge.
Do think it's got to also do with the way that we're using technology? Cause I wonder if you are a sensitive person and then you are interacting with people on zoom or via text messages. In my mind, the way that you're receiving interpersonal data back is almost glitchy. And I'm wondering if the glitchiness of that data is causing us to have a lot more internal uncertainty because we can't quite process what the other person is thinking and feeling in the way that we usually would with like one-on-one interaction, do you think that's also contributing to the mental tension that a lot of people are dealing with?
Hmm, many people say that. Personally, I don't find that to be that big of an issue because I think fundamentally it happens in one-to-one too. You never get the full picture. It's never gonna be full enough. It's never gonna be 100 % certain. So to me the dilemma you face is the same. And I guess...
Jess (26:54.062)
Personally, I am quite comfortable with online interactions. I have some of my deepest relationship purely online. So personally, I'm alright with that. But what you're saying is definitely not unheard of. And in fact, it's something that I hear very often. So many people find that. I personally, maybe because I am such an introvert myself, I don't need a lot of input. So when I go out with a friend, I actually find it a bit too stimulating.
especially when it's outside, when we're in a public space where there's noise around, we're a coffee shop and people making coffee, people having conversation at the next table, I don't find it very relaxing. Whereas almost in a Zoom environment where it's just me and the other person and our body languages and our conversation, I find that level of stimulation quite adequate. But that's just me, one person.
Yeah, but that's actually really interesting because there is like a certain level of intimacy that zoom affords and then you don't have the pressure either of staying on the call for forever. It's not like you have to go out and drink and do all of these other things. You can have a call that is contained within not such a long amount of time. And if you hang up, it doesn't feel unnatural also to leave a call within a shorter span.
Sure, although these days I'm also assertive enough to limit even the real life. I don't feel the need to go through the whole ritual or do the conventional things or stay the whole party because everyone does. I just don't. I just try to, well, within limits and polite enough. Like my friends know me well enough. For instance, one of my best friends got married, I think two years ago or a year ago. She was like, I love her so much.
Jess (28:49.71)
She was like, hey, I know you probably wouldn't want to stay for the whole thing. Just come for the ceremony. I'm like, oh my God, me so well. I love you. She's like, you don't want the banquets, do you? I'm just not going to count you in. And I was just like, I felt so loved. I didn't feel left out. was like, she knows me so well. She was like, I'm, she's not saying these in words, but what she's literally saying is I know you. Your social battery probably lasts for about an hour.
And it's a bit like a high school reunion as well where you get to see all of these high school friends that you haven't seen for ages, which she probably knows I'll find quite tiring. And she knows I, particular, peculiar diet, so I probably wouldn't want to stay for the banquet. And she's like, I'm just not going to count you in. Just come for the ceremony. I like, I love you. And I stayed for the ceremony, took the picture I needed to, and then left. No one's offended because they were just like, that's Emmy, that's her.
Jess (29:47.416)
But it took time. It took time. would imagine maybe 20 years ago I'll be like, okay, everyone stays for the whole thing and so I have to.
That's really nice. Yeah. So what, what brought you to that place of, guess, self exploration or what brought you to the place of having the confidence to know yourself and just to embody or step into yourself authentically? Yes.
What I would suggest for people to do is to test it out in safe water, little by little, and then once they get the reward, like this is a huge reward for me, of feeling so seen by my friend, of getting that gentle I know you, that is really, it made me feel deeply loved and seen. And once you get the feedback in that way and it feels so good, it will reinforce the loop. It will help you do it again. And then you eventually realize it's not so scary.
Imi Lo (30:55.515)
That makes a lot of sense actually, little by little can build up strength.
And you don't need to please everyone and make everyone feel very comfortable by not having anyone... I'm not hurting anyone usually, right? When I leave a party early or do something that is authentic. But like, for instance, I walk out of the cinema very often. Because I just think like, well, if I don't like this already, forget about the sunk cost, I'm just going to walk out. Like I'm not hurting anyone, but it takes time to be okay with doing the unconventional thing.
Yeah, makes sense. And I guess the upside too is, you're inadvertently giving people permission to do the unconventional too.
Yes, and I would encourage you with the owner themselves, not necessarily doing the unconventional thing, but just do the honest thing, do the authentic thing, within reason, with a healthy balance of public interest, but be authentic.
Imi Lo (31:58.348)
Yeah, that makes sense. And I wanted to ask too, so you've spent a lot of time, have a master's in Buddhism as well. And then you've also stepped into Stoicism. Can you explain to me why you chose those two paths in relation to the work that you were doing?
I'm coming up with a third part as well. Recently I'm exploring Taoism and also some Western philosophies. I don't know. I guess I'm just drawn to them. With Stoicism it's coming a bit, well actually both, it's a bit problematic where there are lots of watered down self-help books and within the academic circles those get a lot of criticisms.
But I would admit that my initial venture into these philosophies were probably also through those online influencers and watered down self-help books. And then you go deeper and deeper. I don't know if I have a very deep answer to that, rather than just I just resonate with them and I find them helpful, especially when I couldn't reach out to my therapist. I guess back then you didn't have chat GPT to talk to, so I resorted to talking to ancient philosophers. I find answers to my angst.
That's a good answer, I like that. But actually, now that you've brought up chat GPT, could you please tell me, how are you interacting with that in a therapeutic sense? Because I've been playing with it myself, but I'd love to know what you're doing.
Jess (33:28.566)
sure I'm doing much with it. You mean with my clients or just myself?
experimented with treating it like a therapist, like everyone else do. Not like a therapist, but I have tried to put in my more human dilemma and asked it what to do. I know it has come a long way. At the beginning of it, it does come up with answers that pisses me off.
I don't know if I am informed enough to form any opinion on it yet. I do think AI ethics is a serious thing that we need to think about. I think people split into two camps of either AI being good, that it is accelerating human progress, or it being a scary thing that will take over human. I don't know where I stand, but I think I lean on the pessimistic side.
I really don't know where it's going. I am relatively pessimistic about it not replacing human. So, but personally, when I try to treat it as a therapist, it's really not the same. I do think there's something irreplaceable about a human. Coach therapist that offers a deeply corrective experience that AI doesn't replace. I also think
This is just me forming a new thought and I'm speaking with no basis, but I think there is the danger of dependency there. Because with a human, you can't control, like even with my therapist where I had worked, my late therapist I've worked with many years, it's another human. However authentic I am, I can't control what they say, I can't control them. Right, with AI it's not like you can control it, but...
Well, number one is always available. Your therapist isn't. There's boundaries in there. You need to respect your therapist. But with AI, you don't. It's always there. And then I do think it breeds this dependency where someone would really... some people may really have that escalated and be getting used to this idea that there's always something outside of yourself that you can seek answer from. I think that's the danger that I am intuiting.
I don't know if it would actually happen, it's just something that I... It's a budding worry of mine that, ooh... Because I find myself, like, if something is 24 hours, 24-7 available, it's a bit regressing, not in a good way, and it breeds dependency, not in a good way, and it makes you lose the muscle of finding answers within yourself and being okay with that without seeking external reassurance. I think it weakens that muscle.
Jess (36:26.55)
if you always go to check GPD and check. So that's one thing I am thinking. And then the other thing is I treat my AI with respect. I actually say thank you to it, but not everyone does. if you, but with humans, you do. Like if your therapist says something that you don't like hearing, you need to find a way and learn to express it in an authentic yet respectful way.
But with AI you can go F you, I don't like it, redo, right? But you can't manipulate human interactions quite in the same way. So I think using it to replace human is problematic in these ways.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because my mind is also going to the way that people are interacting with other humans, even just on keyboards too. That I guess is becoming a lot of digital outlets for expressing anger and frustration and hurt and the spectrum of other things that aren't particularly regulated or healthy.
Yes, yeah. And people feel like they can say whatever when they hide behind the screen. And that's where a lot of the cyberbullying and unproductive conversations goes on the internet and online hating that comes about. We can also get onto the topic of all these echo chambers and silos where because of the big data and algorithms
people form these silos where they only expose opinions that agrees with them and they become less and less familiar with the idea of having to deal with diversity or the need to train that muscle again, use that metaphor to be open to things and people that are very different to you. Otherness, we call it, you need to be okay with ideas that there are these things called
Jess (38:29.272)
people not like me and we need to learn to deal with them. But if you create your online experience to just be surrounded by people like you, you unfriend everyone that's on the other side of the politics and it just gets into this, you just get into these apple chambers and silos and you lose the ability to embrace diversity and different opinions.
Yeah, it's interesting to the word muscle because I also wonder about that in terms of after COVID. I feel like it's taken people a lot of effort to get back out of their houses and I don't even know that they entirely have. And I do wonder if we did lose an aspect of our social muscle from the time that we spent indoors. And if that is also like contributing to that reluctance to get back out and socialize because I socializing it does have. It is possible to injure yourself when socializing because you can stumble across moments that cause you a sense of shame. So maybe people are just regressing into their houses more and more to try and avoid that certain pain.
Yeah, yeah. And our world has changed so much and so quickly after COVID. I don't think anyone is able to keep up with it. maybe I'm just projecting, but I... Yeah. Like for instance, people are more allowed to work from home. Younger people are more reluctant to go into a big company and do the conventional thing our parents' generation do.
You know, many young people just want to be these things called slashers and they just want to work for themselves. They just want to become another online influencers. which is great. Like I really celebrate entrepreneurship, but I guess I'm at home with your points there. That we have more and more structures that supports that individualism rather than structures that quote unquote forces us to be in a group and to interact with others, which
Jess (40:37.902)
I made it sound like a bad thing, but I'm not sure actually. It could be where we're evolving and we will find a way through it. I just don't know. Things are changing so quickly.
Yeah, like how do you see religion? Because I often think about religion as an institution, which obviously has like a lot of problematic aspects, but then it does, to use your word, like it did force people to come together. What do you see? Like, do you see the sort of step back from religion as something that's impacting this? I guess it's one of many things, but completely. Yeah. mean, many years ago Nietzsche talks about God being dead, right? And he didn't mean it in literal sense, but what he's referring to is the fragmentation of society once religions and religious institutions have lose its authority as the authority. So the world has become a lot more unstructured and without a grand narrative.
it is a lot scarier. People really need to take ownership of their lives and decide on their own values then. And it is messy and chaotic. And if we also don't have the best family environments that help us, that guides us to find our own authentic values, we get very confused. And that is not very good for mental health, especially before we find answers for ourselves.
Jess (42:21.174)
So I'm not going to say religion is good or bad or anything like that. But what I would acknowledge is that, unlike many, many years ago, it's losing its authority as the grand narrative, as something that everyone does. And losing that sense of certainty is scary for the human species and for many people. And they're being confronted with their own ultimate freedom to decide on their own values, which is great and scary at the same time. Because we don't just do what our parents do and believe in what they believe anymore, and we just adopt a system that the priest tells us. We are thrown into this fragmented world where there are all these different religions and systems of thinking and political positions that we need to be the one who pick. And when we need to be the one who pick, we could be quote unquote wrong. And that is scary. And that creates unscience,I wonder if you had a religious belief, you would have felt like you were okay just being a good person and to use the word that you used before, like a connector, like if you were someone who was sensitive, would you have felt like just simply being and threading different people together? Like would that have given you a sense of enoughness if you did have like a banner of just being a good person to live within? Because I feel like being a good person isn't really considered to be enough in today's current climate, quite right. So in the past things are simpler in that way where as long as you follow the rules and reach this metric of being a good person according to the Church, then you're okay. But now it's not enough. It's a lot more complex.
Imi Lo (44:19.118)
Have you seen any initiatives to try and reconfigure a value system or a shared set of ideologies that you feel optimistic about?
Oh, doing it? people are doing it all the time. I don't know the work enough to speak to that. Jordan Pearson seems to be creating his own form of structure that people are. We can't even argue that most people who write a book or come up with something are trying to come up with their own. Maybe not. Ask your question again, because I'm not sure I'm answering it.
No, but I think I just picked up what you were putting down. think like when people are constructing a book, they almost are creating like a philosophy or an ideology to live behind. So that's sort of their attempt at putting forward like a new value system that we could live within or live behind, which. Yeah.
In a way, But the difference, guess, is, for instance, when I was young, I never had the ambition to dominate the world. All I wanted to talk to are the small group of people, however small or big they are, it will be organic, that resonates with it. And if you find something helpful, then cool. Like, people do want community and they do want a sense of identity and an ideology. I guess I never have the ambition to be the builder of that. Like I don't want to start my own thing, it's just if you find something useful in this great. And I always say to people, pick up what's useful and drop the rest exactly because I don't really because I believe like when you write a book like that, or when you throw a lot of ideas out.
Jess (46:11.562)
Not everyone needs to or will resonate with every single one. And I don't have the ambition to form an ideology where people subscribe to in that way. I just want people to pick up what's useful. Like for instance, people come to a website and they see all these categories. I don't really want everyone to go, my god, every single label is me, I can resonate with this. No, just... Pick the one that is useful and then take something away and then go find the next thing that might be useful to you and then form your own. That's what I would want to see rather than creating another thing where people subscribe to fully. But that's just me. I think some people have the ambition of creating that community and good for them. Yeah, but that's really interesting what you're saying. So it's almost like the process of finding things that resonate with you, consuming and understanding those things and then creating as the next piece in the cycle. that's a bit of a catalyst of feeling like you're anchored into something. So it's maybe not like a physical community, but maybe it's a, like a conceptual community.
Yeah, yeah. And maybe I'm just speaking out of God knows what. And maybe in today's world, we need to not just belong to one community, maybe we can have a few. Like maybe I could have a community where a book club and a film club and then I have an Enneagram, I like the Enneagram, an Enneagram interest group. So these are all these pieces that make up who you are. And it's maybe healthier.
Jess (48:03.192)
that way than to say, religion, like, okay, I just have this one community that encapsulates everything I am and everything that is said in the holy book captures everything and everything has to be right. maybe it's messier and more fragmented, but more appropriate for the world we live in today, maybe, because there are different parts to you. And you can find communities to feed each pockets of them. Makes sense, because then I guess too, you also can't bypass individual discernment because there will be moments when one community might be in conflict with the other and then you must feel within yourself. You must feel into your intuition and decide what most aligns to you. Yes, and then you need to train the ability to discern and to keep going back to yourself and seeking answer from here rather than waiting for someone to prescribe something to you, which is a hard thing to do, especially when you have a not very supportive childhood where you were constantly criticised for not doing the right thing.
Yeah, it was really interesting when you were breaking down the developmental stages and how that has such an impact on the way that you form. Would you mind speaking a little bit about that? what, it's a difficult question, but like what is the influence of your parents on how that, how your sort of psyche develops?
That is such a big question. I've written another book about it.
Imi Lo (49:41.602)
People should definitely read your book though. Fantastic. Yeah. in the next year.
Jess (49:48.598)
in different ways. I there are different kinds of childhood developmental trauma. So I really can't capture it all in one podcast discussion. let's say if you have a narcissist, a bully-ish parents, and these are false distinction, because people are never just one thing. But I would try to break down their behaviours and put them into boxes so we can start thinking about them when in reality, of course, they're always a mixed bag and it's complicated. For instance, we may have the archetype of a parent that's like a bully, a narcissistic bully, or we might have a parent that's very dependent where they're emotionally immature so the roles get reversed, where you're more like the parents and they act like a child. And all your life you feel like you've just like brought your parents up. that's called parentification. There's another trauma. There are parents who are just abandoning an absence, usually because they might be dealing with their own things. Maybe they had depression and maybe they are just immigrant parents are very busy making a living and have no time for you and your development and your emotions. So usually it's not because they are malicious or they're bad people. It's usually because they carry their own trauma and they have their struggles. Sometimes it's no one's fault.
So all these different dynamics might create different kinds of outcomes and affect you in different ways. For instance, if you've grown up with parentification where you emotionally immature parents who rely on you, you may feel the compulsive need to always be rescuing others, to always be caretaking others and to deprioritise yourself. That might be one outcome. Or if you have very volatile parents where you never know if this Mr Jackal will hide, then you might end up with hypervigilance where you never feel safe in an interpersonal relationship. You always feel like someone's about to turn on you. You can't relax. Earlier you talk about how in the online space with texts and everything, you can never know for sure if the other person means this or that. That hypervigilance can sometimes be a result of having a very unstable and hard to read parents where you feel like you're constantly...
Jess (52:07.726)
constantly need to be washing out and decoding every tiny little interpersonal signal to make sure that the other person is not mad at you, they won't blow up at you or they won't be violent the next moment. The examples I can give are endless. Okay, like if we play with that piece, because you mentioned the archetypes before, and I know you've got on your website, you talk about the Jungian archetypes and the Enneagram. What role do you see understanding the archetypes as a channel to start breaking down and better understanding the components of your parents? Or how do you step into unpacking the puzzle that is your childhood in order to learn about yourself from it?
Big question. When I used the word archetype just then, I didn't specifically refer to in a Yong-Yin sense. I think it's more like characters, right? Yeah. It's just because the reality is so complex. So I keep putting the caveat into say, reality is complex and everyone is not just one thing. Because that is the case, but it gets tiring if I keep putting that caveat in. It's a bit like the personality thing. Everyone met...People sometimes get the misunderstanding that it's a bit like putting people in boxes. Like, if you're this type, then you're just this type. When actually, no, all of us are all types, but there might be a dominant function and a less dominant function, that's all. All of us are both introvert and extrovert. All of us are both S and N, if we used the MBTI or if we used anagram, all of us are everything, but there might be a dominant function that defines us more in a way. So when I used the word archetype, I just meant that like I have to come up with these false constructs in order to discuss things. For instance, in my upcoming book, I do say there are four types of parents, bully parents, emotionally immature parents, parents who pushes you to achieve.
Jess (54:16.874)
as if they are these caricatures, that's only one thing, but the reality is not like that. But I do need to do that in order to just talk, to have a discussion, to categorise things, to organise things so it gets easier to be digested. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but by organising things in these ways, We have a tool or a framework to better understand our experience and that's always helpful. Because that helps us make sense of what we're struggling with without over blaming ourselves or assuming that it's because of some fundamental flaws of us. We begin to see that, this is a trauma reaction. It's not be or end or there's hope. We can change this. We can heal from this. I'm hyper-vigilant not because, oh, I'm just an anxious person. That's the way I am and I'm doomed. No, it's probably a trauma reaction that we can heal from.
Imi Lo (55:17.1)
No, that definitely does ask my question and answer my question. It's very useful lens that you're putting around it too. Cause I do often have a conversation with people around, what is the, what is the purpose of the point of personalities or understanding things like the Enneagram. But to your point, it's useful to have, guess, maybe like a jumping off point for consideration from, because otherwise if everything's completely open, then there's almost like no language to observe from perhaps. It is the middle ground, yeah. I both love and hate these categories because I really think people get into the misunderstanding that there's just this one box and then it defines you fully. But it really isn't the case. And then it gets so tiring and worthy when I always try to put the caveats in like I've already done many times today. Yeah. It's interesting though, because I guess I think it's really important because I guess what again what concerns me is I feel like we are getting very polarizing in the labels that we're using, but we do still need to go into those spaces of self-inquiry. Like so many people are using the term narcissist at the moment, which is a little bit scary. Because I don't know my understanding at least of narcissism is that person might have parts of them that are very maybe arrogant or overconfident, then they've also got very insecure parts as well so there's not even the case that they're one way and not another way, but I don't even know if that's being understood.
I know it's complex and I think what's not happening in the conversation is also that there is such a thing as healthy narcissism too. Psychology, where you do need to have some degree of healthy narcissism in order to function. It is complicated.
Imi Lo (57:05.602)
Yeah. I wanted to ask you too, it's not a very smooth entry into the question, but you spoke about this concept of positive disintegration, which I just found so interesting. I know it was a concept that you referenced from a particular social scientist, but could you speak about positive disintegration and yeah, why that made its way into your book? Cause to me it resonated and I'd love to hear you break it down. I'm not the best expert on that concept, but it is a concept that is more relevant to people who identify themselves as gifted, of maybe... intelligence is a narrow measurement of giftedness, but there's a whole community of people who feel differently where the label gifted, although it's a later loaded term, fits. And it's by a psychologist whose name I could never pronounce, the Browsky, positive disintegration. I quoted it as a useful and relevant framework because many people find utility in it. Also because it does reframe a lot of the chaos and internal turmoil that you experience in a different way. It is a process of chaos where everything feels not right, but actually you're trying to transcend and push through to a higher place.
There is a deepening incongruence that you feel between your behaviours and who you ideally want to be and the incongruence is wearing on you. That is painful to feel but it's not a bad thing because it means that you're probably breaking through to the next level of becoming the best you can be. Some of the key features is you will feel huge inner conflict, this tension between what you feel you should do and what feels truly meaningful for you, for instance. So there's that. Like how we talked about earlier, following society's scripts versus finding your inner truth, right? And then the whole, the reason why it's called disintegration is because it involves a whole process of breaking down the old structure, breaking down what they call the lower self, the old habits of social conditioning, the shallow goals.
Jess (59:25.42)
that no longer serve who you're becoming. And this can feel like you're losing your footing and questioning absolutely everything you knew, which isn't a scary place to be. But then if you can break through that, then you get into a higher you, a better you. No, sorry, I really don't like the word better, but a more authentic you. Yeah.
At the moment, feels like intense self-doubt, guilt, fear of judgement, existential questioning, heightened emotional intensity, feeling like you're in this limerent space of in-between chaos. But if you can really reframe it and see it as growth, then you do get to become a more authentic you.
Yeah, because you disintegrate and then you reboot. I don't know if that's what the Browsky said. I never really read his full book. The primary text is a bit scary. I read a little secondary sources and I talk to people around it. I probably read it once or something, but I cannot remember any of it. But it is a useful idea and concept. And again, if you find resonance and utility in it, use it. If not, drop it.
Imi Lo (01:01:02.062)
To ask like, do you do work with groups of people? Or how could we bring more people into a space where they can go through processes of self inquiry with you? Because it stood out so much to me, the chapters that you brought people through in the book, and I thought they were really special, special threading of concepts and ideas. Do you take people through things as a group? And would that be something you'd be interested in doing if you don't already?
Good question. Many people have asked me that before. Many years ago, many years ago, ancient time, when I was a therapist working in the hospital, I have done group therapy. I don't like or dislike it. I don't think it's my...
Jess (01:01:49.974)
It's just not what I choose to invest my time in doing, that's all. And I also do not think it's my biggest strength. Some people absolutely love groups. Some therapists just thrive on it. They are group analysts. And I guess I'm just not that. Maybe it's got something to do with me being an introvert. I don't know. But I enjoy one to one more. So there's no deeper reasons to not doing it. I do think it will be a great thing to do and it will probably serve many people. I have also explored things like coming up with an online course or things like that.
Does your work in a course?
Well, people have suggested to me before, some people even say, it's a great way of making money or something. Like some years ago, it quite a popular idea. I've reached a point in my life where within reason, I really just want to do what I feel the most comfortable with and go all in on that.
What's his name? Something silver. okay, he, not me, but someone had a phrase called, if it's not hell, yes, then it's a no. So there's no strong reason for not doing, apart from the fact that I have limited time and resources on this short human life of mine. And I have invested it in doing one-to-one consulting at the moment with a passion in giving it a philosophical blend.
Jess (01:03:22.06)
And that's what I'm focusing on at the moment. And the book is full. That's all. But I do definitely see the value in it. People have asked me that before. I think it would be a great thing. It's just not within my capacity at the moment. That's all. It's also not a forever no. It's just what it is right now. Profound and deep to that really, apart from...
Jess (01:03:47.99)
I wish I could do all these things if I have 72 hours a day, but I hardly get enough time for my own sleep. So something I just can't do right now. And it may be that I'm not the best person. Maybe someone will be stronger in that arena and maybe they should do it rather than me occupying a space. So I'm not good at everything. I'm only good with very specific things.
I'm sure you would be good at it, but your answer is extremely authentically aligned to everything that I see to be your philosophy, so it makes perfect sense.
.